MoneyBallSucksBaconsBalls

MoneyBallSucksBaconsBalls

Postby mister bacon » 01 Jun 2006, 19:07

jack_daniels wrote:bacon, what's your beef against moneyball?


overhyped bullshit thats never ever won anything.. yet everyone worships it as gospel.
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Postby JichaelDick » 01 Jun 2006, 19:09

mister bacon wrote:
jack_daniels wrote:bacon, what's your beef against moneyball?


overhyped bullshit thats never ever won anything.. yet everyone worships it as gospel.


Never won a damn thing.

Sincerely,

2004 Boston Red Sox
TVF wannabe - Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:42 pm: ...a good rule of thumb is if you post some thing like that and IMS quickly jumps in with an uncomfortable reference you went too far
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Postby mister bacon » 01 Jun 2006, 19:22

the red sox had a massive payroll, how is that "moneyball"?
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mj3528 wrote: I hate panhandlers with dogs. I feel so bad for the dog.

ctz31 - Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:30 pm: I'm gonna win a chip w romo. I'm done w blacks. No offense
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Postby JichaelDick » 01 Jun 2006, 19:32

mister bacon wrote:the red sox had a massive payroll, how is that "moneyball"?


Well, the key player on that team was a guy by the name of David Ortiz. Ortiz was an undervalued player who had a decent power stroke, but for some reason, the Twins organization wanted to keep Matt LeCroy and Doug Mientkiewicz. Epstein saw he had a decent OBP and power stroke, and took a chance on him. He's been killing the AL since. Also signed Bill Mueller, who was also undervalued. The really only huge deals they made that year were trading for Schilling and signing Foulke. Foulke was a bit odd, as Oakland generally only kept closers around a year, and the Sox gave him a long-term deal, but then again, it was bullpen depth that hurt the Sox the year before.
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Postby Ulysses Everett McGill » 01 Jun 2006, 19:36

mister bacon wrote:
jack_daniels wrote:bacon, what's your beef against moneyball?


overhyped bullshit thats never ever won anything.. yet everyone worships it as gospel.


The biggest problem with Moneyball is that 90% of the people that spout off about it have never read the book nor have even tried to understand the basic tenets of it.
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Postby mister bacon » 01 Jun 2006, 19:37

how is trading for undervalued players moneyball? i thought that was just doing your job.

Ulysses Everett McGill wrote:The biggest problem with Moneyball is that 90% of the people that spout off about it have never read the book nor have even tried to understand the basic tenets of it.


i freely admit i havent read it, but observing beane's choketastic teams year after year doesn't impress me.

yes i understand all the "tenets and ideas" but when its all said and done, all they every do is MAKE the playoffs and get bounced. not impressive to me.
Last edited by mister bacon on 01 Jun 2006, 19:39, edited 1 time in total.
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mj3528 wrote: I hate panhandlers with dogs. I feel so bad for the dog.

ctz31 - Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:30 pm: I'm gonna win a chip w romo. I'm done w blacks. No offense
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Postby JichaelDick » 01 Jun 2006, 19:38

Ulysses Everett McGill wrote:
mister bacon wrote:
jack_daniels wrote:bacon, what's your beef against moneyball?


overhyped bullshit thats never ever won anything.. yet everyone worships it as gospel.


The biggest problem with Moneyball is that 90% of the people that spout off about it have never read the book nor have even tried to understand the basic tenets of it.


That, and there are old codgers who haven't read the book but feel the need to criticize it all the time (not to mention any names, but one example of this is a certain Red Second Baseman that is now an Emmy award winning broadcaster whose name rhymes with Doe Borgan)

mister bacon wrote:how is trading for undervalued players moneyball? i thought that was just doing your job.


DING DING DING!!! Bacon has just nailed what Moneyball is all about. That's the whole point of Moneyball...building a winning team around guys that have been undervalued for some reason (don't hit enough homers, strikes out too much, has a weird looking face, etc...). The book isn't a "how to bunt" manual.
Last edited by JichaelDick on 01 Jun 2006, 19:45, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby kaskomm09 » 01 Jun 2006, 19:40

JichaelDick wrote:
Ulysses Everett McGill wrote:
mister bacon wrote:
jack_daniels wrote:bacon, what's your beef against moneyball?


overhyped bullshit thats never ever won anything.. yet everyone worships it as gospel.


The biggest problem with Moneyball is that 90% of the people that spout off about it have never read the book nor have even tried to understand the basic tenets of it.


That, and there are old codgers who haven't read the book but feel the need to criticize it all the time (not to mention any names, but one example of this is a certain Red First Baseman that is now an Emmy award winning broadcaster whose name rhymes with Doe Borgan)


Sean Casey?

(Joe Morgan played second base)
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Postby mister bacon » 01 Jun 2006, 19:41

unless someone wins following the moneyball philosophy, it is a footnote in baseball history when all is said and done.
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mj3528 wrote: I hate panhandlers with dogs. I feel so bad for the dog.

ctz31 - Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:30 pm: I'm gonna win a chip w romo. I'm done w blacks. No offense
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Postby JichaelDick » 01 Jun 2006, 19:42

kaskomm09 wrote:
JichaelDick wrote:
Ulysses Everett McGill wrote:
mister bacon wrote:
jack_daniels wrote:bacon, what's your beef against moneyball?


overhyped bullshit thats never ever won anything.. yet everyone worships it as gospel.


The biggest problem with Moneyball is that 90% of the people that spout off about it have never read the book nor have even tried to understand the basic tenets of it.


That, and there are old codgers who haven't read the book but feel the need to criticize it all the time (not to mention any names, but one example of this is a certain Red First Baseman that is now an Emmy award winning broadcaster whose name rhymes with Doe Borgan)


Sean Casey?

(Joe Morgan played second base)


FUCK!!! Thanks, Kasko. Just can't type worth a fuck.

mister bacon wrote:unless someone wins following the moneyball philosophy, it is a footnote in baseball history when all is said and done.


Somebody already has, bacon. The Red Sox were run by guys who followed Moneyball guys. The only difference is they had a huge payroll. Moneyball doesn't just mean that poor teams use it. God knows the Twins haven't.
TVF wannabe - Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:42 pm: ...a good rule of thumb is if you post some thing like that and IMS quickly jumps in with an uncomfortable reference you went too far
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Postby Ulysses Everett McGill » 01 Jun 2006, 19:46

mister bacon wrote:how is trading for undervalued players moneyball? i thought that was just doing your job.

Ulysses Everett McGill wrote:The biggest problem with Moneyball is that 90% of the people that spout off about it have never read the book nor have even tried to understand the basic tenets of it.


i freely admit i havent read it, but observing beane's choketastic teams year after year doesn't impress me.

yes i understand all the "tenets and ideas" but when its all said and done, all they every do is MAKE the playoffs and get bounced. not impressive to me.


I'm not even trying to criticize you for not reading the book, in fact, I assume that you had.

Another important aspect of Moneyball is "do not rely solely on the scouts" because there are some things that have been long-held beliefs in baseball that simply are not true.

For example, many scouts believed that finding a hard-throwing high school pitcher was the best route to find arms when, under the Moneyball theory of using statistical analysis, the FACT is that more successfull major league pitchers have come from college.

To me, the aspect of Moneyball that is so misunderstood is the use of statistics to mathematically verify or debunk "truths" that some old-time baseball people hold on to.
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Postby mister bacon » 01 Jun 2006, 19:49

okay so is the philosophy the management of money or what stats you use to evaluate players?

because the name is "moneyball" id always assumed that the whole purpose in finding undervalued stats was to save money.

if a team has a huge payroll, they arent doing it to save money.. they are just using the same stats.. that is NOT the implimentation of a philosophy.

thats just using the same stats, again, moneyball hasnt won shit for the guy who invented it.. why? because he doesnt have enough money. which, since the whole book revolves around finding undervalued stats to find cheap players to win, means that the philosophy is a crock.

im not sure how Theo using OBP and whatever means he used the same philosophy. I'm sure you can use a lot of philosophies to win a world series with the 2nd highest payroll in the majors. so the fuck what?

Ulysses Everett McGill wrote:Another important aspect of Moneyball is "do not rely solely on the scouts" because there are some things that have been long-held beliefs in baseball that simply are not true.

For example, many scouts believed that finding a hard-throwing high school pitcher was the best route to find arms when, under the Moneyball theory of using statistical analysis, the FACT is that more successfull major league pitchers have come from college.

To me, the aspect of Moneyball that is so misunderstood is the use of statistics to mathematically verify or debunk "truths" that some old-time baseball people hold on to.


i do understand this, but what is the philisophical tenet that is being furthered by this concept? dont listen to scouts and evaluate prospect using statistical analysis? why is that so innovative?
Last edited by mister bacon on 01 Jun 2006, 19:52, edited 1 time in total.
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mj3528 wrote: I hate panhandlers with dogs. I feel so bad for the dog.

ctz31 - Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:30 pm: I'm gonna win a chip w romo. I'm done w blacks. No offense
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Postby JichaelDick » 01 Jun 2006, 19:54

bacon, I'm gonna you a number...

.5%.

That's the odds a team will make the playoffs 4 years running. Now, add to the fact said team is in the bottom 10 of payroll, and now, you're looking at probably less than a .25% chance of making the playoffs. If you can't find something remarkable about what Beane did in Oakland, you're on something. Also, the odds against losing 4 straight game 5s is 15:1. In other words, it was pure, unadulterated luck that cost the A's those games. In a 5-game series, that shit happens.
TVF wannabe - Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:42 pm: ...a good rule of thumb is if you post some thing like that and IMS quickly jumps in with an uncomfortable reference you went too far
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Postby mister bacon » 01 Jun 2006, 20:01

JichaelDick wrote:If you can't find something remarkable about what Beane did in Oakland, you're on something. Also, the odds against losing 4 straight game 5s is 15:1. In other words, it was pure, unadulterated luck that cost the A's those games. In a 5-game series, that shit happens.


im not on anything, its just the truth. its a nice song and dance to get to the playoffs, but when it comes to really winning or becoming a threat to win a championship.. it is insignificant.

if you cant close the deal in four straight five game series, something is wrong with your team. when beane or some other team with a shit payroll wins using this philosophy, ill give it its due. until then, it is the "run and shoot" of baseball.
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mj3528 wrote: I hate panhandlers with dogs. I feel so bad for the dog.

ctz31 - Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:30 pm: I'm gonna win a chip w romo. I'm done w blacks. No offense
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Postby JichaelDick » 01 Jun 2006, 20:09

All right, let's go through the Game 5s, shall we...

2000: Yankees...L 7-5.

Should be noted the Yankees went on to win it all that season. This was also Oakland's first time into the playoffs, and most had no experience.

2001: Yankees...L 5-3

This one was a choke job, although that came in the immediate aftermath of Game 3 and the Jeter play (Giambi was safe, too, dammit!)

2002: Twins L 5-4

Tough loss to take if you're an A's fan. Just an atrocious 9th inning for them. Still, trailing 5-1, they got 3 runs and had the tying run on 2nd when the final out was made. One more bleeder, the A's probably advance to the ALCS.

2003: Red Sox L 4-3

Zito hangs his curve ball. Manny hits it to San Jose. Oakland also has bases loaded and can't get the hit. Do we blame Beane for Terrence Long not getting the hit?

Now, let's look at a poor team that DID win a World Series, the Florida Marlins.

They won with good power hitters (Pudge, Lee, Encarnacion, Miggy Cabrera in his first year), two great OBP guys (Pierre and Castillo), and homegrown pitching (Penny, Beckett, Willis-yes, I know he was originally a Cub, but I think most of his minor league experience came with the Marlins). Sounds an AWFUL lot like the Oakland teams under Beane, right? Maybe they didn't use Moneyball techniques (in fact, they were gloating about how this proved how Moneyball sucked), but they damn sure were as close to a Moneyball team as you can get.

ETA: Can't believe I didn't mention this earlier...Beane built those teams SPECIFICALLY to make the playoffs. The exact words used to describe the playoffs are "a giant crapshoot." In other words, Beane was trying to get his team that far and hoping they could pull it out. Saying a system is a failure because a team goes 2-3 in a 5-game stretch against another damn good team is a little far-fetched, don't you think
Last edited by JichaelDick on 01 Jun 2006, 20:16, edited 1 time in total.
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