Random Thoughts - The NFL Edition

Random Thoughts - The NFL Edition

Postby MisterTambourineMan » 20 Dec 2007, 00:11

Should've been one here from the get Go!....of course, they're might be one deeper in the catacombs of this site, but I'm lazy and stoned and don't feel like looking anymore, so, here it is, with some thoughts to kick things off.

Emmitt Smith is not a Top Ten all-time back. And O.J. is. Maybe even Bo. Not Emmit.

I can't say Drew Pearson's name around my dad.

Did Jerry Rice bring Joe Montana to a higher level, or did Joe Montana bring Jerry Rice to a higher level? Based on what Rice did with Young (and Gannon, who...should...just....die), isn't it obvious Rice brought Montana up...and if that's the case, is Montana overrated?

Roger Craig might be the most underrated player ever; ditto Chuck Foreman.

Terry Bradshaw might be the most overrated player ever; ditto Tiki Barber. Just stop it, New York media, stop. We'll never buy it, we shouldn't buy it, stop selling it. Tiki sucked...ok, he didn't suck, but he's no better than Chuck Foreman.

The best defense I ever saw was last year's Ravens in the playoff game versus the Colts. Also, I apparently write like Larry King. I'm serious about the Ravens D though. It was better than the Super Bowl D.

Those 80s Bears teams really shit the bed didn't they? Only one super bowl appearence? Really? They can't claim Elvis Grbac either. Just a bed shitting.

Every stadium designer should just copy Lambeau Field. I think Simmons said that once too, and if he did, he's right.

JIM MARSHALL IS A GOD. Oh, motherfuck, the lack of rememberence that guy gets makes me cringe...."ooooooooh, Brett Favre plays in allllll thhheeeseeee gaaaameeees in aaaw rrrrowwww", fuck you....Jim Marshall holds the record (for non-punters, go to hell Feagles) while playing 19 years in the True NFC North in an age when players were a step above neanderthals. Once accidentally shot himself while hunting...it was a tuesday...he played sunday. I'm pretty sure that's true.

Alright, good talk, see ya out there.
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Re: Random Thoughts - The NFL Edition

Postby Vacheron 1072/1 » 20 Dec 2007, 00:50

MisterTambourineMan wrote:Should've been one here from the get Go!....of course, they're might be one deeper in the catacombs of this site, but I'm lazy and stoned and don't feel like looking anymore, so, here it is, with some thoughts to kick things off.

Emmitt Smith is not a Top Ten all-time back. And O.J. is. Maybe even Bo. Not Emmit.

I can't say Drew Pearson's name around my dad.

Did Jerry Rice bring Joe Montana to a higher level, or did Joe Montana bring Jerry Rice to a higher level? Based on what Rice did with Young (and Gannon, who...should...just....die), isn't it obvious Rice brought Montana up...and if that's the case, is Montana overrated?

Roger Craig might be the most underrated player ever; ditto Chuck Foreman.

Terry Bradshaw might be the most overrated player ever; ditto Tiki Barber. Just stop it, New York media, stop. We'll never buy it, we shouldn't buy it, stop selling it. Tiki sucked...ok, he didn't suck, but he's no better than Chuck Foreman.

The best defense I ever saw was last year's Ravens in the playoff game versus the Colts. Also, I apparently write like Larry King. I'm serious about the Ravens D though. It was better than the Super Bowl D.

Those 80s Bears teams really shit the bed didn't they? Only one super bowl appearence? Really? They can't claim Elvis Grbac either. Just a bed shitting.

Every stadium designer should just copy Lambeau Field. I think Simmons said that once too, and if he did, he's right.

JIM MARSHALL IS A GOD. Oh, motherfuck, the lack of rememberence that guy gets makes me cringe...."ooooooooh, Brett Favre plays in allllll thhheeeseeee gaaaameeees in aaaw rrrrowwww", fuck you....Jim Marshall holds the record (for non-punters, go to hell Feagles) while playing 19 years in the True NFC North in an age when players were a step above neanderthals. Once accidentally shot himself while hunting...it was a tuesday...he played sunday. I'm pretty sure that's true.

Alright, good talk, see ya out there.


Good post, mister. I'll add my 2 cents to some of the points you've already made:

The Emmitt vs OJ/Bo question is one of those tricky "sustained excellence vs peak" debates. I'd pick the former for the Hall of Fame but the latter for one game/season at the man's peak.

Stanley Morgan: muy underrated.

I'll have to look at that Ravens/Colts game. Very recent to be hanging an all-time great label on them, though.
I did an analysis of defenses for my Bears fan friend. 00 Ravens vs 85 Bears. In the comparison, the Ravens fared better. In points allowed, wards allowed per rush, yards allowed per pass, and turnovers caused, the Ravens caused a bigger drop/rise (as appropriate) in opponent norm than the Bears. To me, this method accounts for the weaker schedule some use to trumpet Bears superiority. It's close, though. Both squads were great.

Andy Lee is having one of the best seasons ever for a punter.

Wouldn't we complain about 32 Lambeau Field clones? I probably would. Let's see some originality. You can't engineer character into a building, either.

To his credit, Feagles, uppn breaking the record, downplayed his achievement by calling Marshall the record holder among "real players."
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Postby D'Annunzio » 20 Dec 2007, 08:52

Emmitt Smith is not a Top Ten all-time back. And O.J. is. Maybe even Bo. Not Emmit.


I couldn't possibly disagree with this more. Take it from someone who has followed the Cowboys very closely for the past 20+ years. Emmitt is the best and most important player in that franchise's history, is one of the top 10 PLAYERS of all time, and no sound argument can be made that he's not a top 2 or 3 back of all time. In my opinion, he's the best back of all time without question.

Call me a homer all you want, but you had to actually closely follow those 90s Cowboys teams to appreciate just how damned good Emmitt was. Anyone who is the best and most important player on 3 Super Bowl championship teams, and leads the league in all time rushing and rushing touchdowns must have been pretty good.

Joe football fan doesn't appreciate Emmitt because he didn't always produced flashy highlights like Bo Jackson or Barry Sanders, but the guy did the things that it takes to win. And the last time I checked, that was the point of playing. YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, says Herm Edwards.
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Postby Iron Mike Sharpe » 20 Dec 2007, 08:53

If we ever get to the point where we can clone humans, all teams need to have a Jerry Glanville clone as their head coach. For some reason, I was always entertained by that 'tard.

I haven't seen an NBA game in person, but the NFL is far below MLB and the NHL as a live game. But it is the best TV game.
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Postby 700 Level » 20 Dec 2007, 09:10

I couldn't possibly disagree with this more. Take it from someone who has followed the Cowboys very closely for the past 20+ years. Emmitt is the best and most important player in that franchise's history, is one of the top 10 PLAYERS of all time, and no sound argument can be made that he's not a top 2 or 3 back of all time. In my opinion, he's the best back of all time without question.

Call me a homer all you want, but you had to actually closely follow those 90s Cowboys teams to appreciate just how damned good Emmitt was. Anyone who is the best and most important player on 3 Super Bowl championship teams, and leads the league in all time rushing and rushing touchdowns must have been pretty good.

Joe football fan doesn't appreciate Emmitt because he didn't always produced flashy highlights like Bo Jackson or Barry Sanders, but the guy did the things that it takes to win. And the last time I checked, that was the point of playing. YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, says Herm Edwards.


Ahh, the old Emmitt debate. Let me start by saying I think most running backs are overrated, while ALL offensive lineman are underrated, but that's a debate for another time. As for Emmitt, while I think he was a great back, he definitely was the product of that team. As someone who was forced to at least watch 2 Cowboys games a year for the last 25 or so years, I saw my fair share of that squad. Emmitt had alot of help on offense (Aikman, Irvin, Novacek), so teams couldn't stack the line on him. Also, he had a fantastic fullback with him in Moose. And most importantly he had that juggernaut of an offensive line in front of him, opeining holes bigger than a Spears vagine. So while I think he was great, I think you could have put alot of backs in there that would have had similar success, like the rotating Broncos backs had a few years ago.
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Postby Theny » 20 Dec 2007, 09:13

d'anny wrote:Call me a homer all you want


Homer. He's definitely top 5 though, no arguing that. Though it's hard to say with running backs sometimes, since, like was mentioned above, the o-line has a lot to do with their success. But hey, he got the record and that's all that matters.
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Postby D'Annunzio » 20 Dec 2007, 09:17

700 Level wrote:
I couldn't possibly disagree with this more. Take it from someone who has followed the Cowboys very closely for the past 20+ years. Emmitt is the best and most important player in that franchise's history, is one of the top 10 PLAYERS of all time, and no sound argument can be made that he's not a top 2 or 3 back of all time. In my opinion, he's the best back of all time without question.

Call me a homer all you want, but you had to actually closely follow those 90s Cowboys teams to appreciate just how damned good Emmitt was. Anyone who is the best and most important player on 3 Super Bowl championship teams, and leads the league in all time rushing and rushing touchdowns must have been pretty good.

Joe football fan doesn't appreciate Emmitt because he didn't always produced flashy highlights like Bo Jackson or Barry Sanders, but the guy did the things that it takes to win. And the last time I checked, that was the point of playing. YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, says Herm Edwards.


Ahh, the old Emmitt debate. Let me start by saying I think most running backs are overrated, while ALL offensive lineman are underrated, but that's a debate for another time. As for Emmitt, while I think he was a great back, he definitely was the product of that team. As someone who was forced to at least watch 2 Cowboys games a year for the last 25 or so years, I saw my fair share of that squad. Emmitt had alot of help on offense (Aikman, Irvin, Novacek), so teams couldn't stack the line on him. Also, he had a fantastic fullback with him in Moose. And most importantly he had that juggernaut of an offensive line in front of him, opeining holes bigger than a Spears vagine. So while I think he was great, I think you could have put alot of backs in there that would have had similar success, like the rotating Broncos backs had a few years ago.


That's a fine argument, until you remember back to the '93 season where Emmitt held out the first 2 games and the team started 0-2. Then he came back and the team went on to win their 2nd straight Super Bowl. That same season in week 17, the Cowboys played the Giants to determine the division and home field advantage. Emmitt separated his shoulder in the game, but went on to run for 180+ yards or something like that and catch 10 passes. He basically won the game by himself. Both John Madden and I think it's the best single game performance we've ever seen by a running back. (Madden has been quoted as saying this, several times).
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Postby 700 Level » 20 Dec 2007, 09:22

I do think that Emmitt was great, but again I just think he had alot of help. You put him on those Lions teams that Barry had to play with and we may be talking about a Fred Taylor type career.
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Postby D'Annunzio » 20 Dec 2007, 09:27

That's another thing I don't understand about this argument that is commonly made about Emmitt. Everyone tries to play the "if" game. Why? Why not just looked at what actually happened on the field? Shouldn't we judge someone's career on what they actually accomplished? Emmitt accomplished more on the field than any running back, ever. Therefore, I'd say he's the best.

OK. I'm done.
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Postby DNice » 20 Dec 2007, 09:41

I hate the Cowboys.
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Postby D'Annunzio » 20 Dec 2007, 09:44

is Montana overrated?


No, he's not. The reason that 49ers won 4 Super Bowls is because they had perhaps the greatest QB and greatest WR in NFL history on that team. Montana would get my vote as best ever.
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Postby Theny » 20 Dec 2007, 09:45

D'Annunzio wrote:
is Montana overrated?


No, he's not. The reason that 49ers won 4 Super Bowls is because they had perhaps the greatest QB and greatest WR in NFL history on that team. Montana would get my vote as best ever.


No way d00d. Troy Aikman pwn3d Montana. :D
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Postby MisterTambourineMan » 20 Dec 2007, 10:06

Vacheron 1072/1 wrote:The Emmitt vs OJ/Bo question is one of those tricky "sustained excellence vs peak" debates. I'd pick the former for the Hall of Fame but the latter for one game/season at the man's peak.


Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm going for here. I'm saying you got One Game...actually, i think I'm saying if I'm starting a team, and I'm told that I'll have ten years of This guy...I could name ten, maybe fifteen before Emmitt. Sorry D'Nun, but we ALLLLL watched those Cowboys teams, and the rest of us understand how much help he had. Was he great? yes. Was he possibly their mvp? yes. Do I like that seinfeld episode I'm recalling right now? of course. But I could've gotten 45yards a game running behind that line and I would have rings if that defense was on my side. Also, Jimmy Johnson is the best talent evaluator ever, IIIIIIMMMMOOOOOOOOOOOO.

D'Annunzio wrote:Joe football fan doesn't appreciate Emmitt because he didn't always produced flashy highlights like Bo Jackson or Barry Sanders, but the guy did the things that it takes to win.


Joe Football Fan (and really, thats what you went to?) understands what an offensive line, a defense, Troy Aikman, Mic...do I have to continue? Really? I love the Barry/Emmitt debate, but the people who defend Emmitt are out of their minds. HE'S GREAT, WE'RE NOT SAYING HE ISN'T! He's just not as good as Sanders.

700 Level wrote:Ahh, the old Emmitt debate. Let me start by saying I think most running backs are overrated, while ALL offensive lineman are underrated


Bingo. Ring it up and send it out...yeah....

Vacheron 1072/1 wrote:I'll have to look at that Ravens/Colts game. Very recent to be hanging an all-time great label on them, though.


Whoa whoa, hey now....not saying All-Time Best or anything, gotta win a super bowl, or two....I'm saying that that defense I watched that day was the best I myself had ever seen. It's a bit convoluted, yeah.

Vacheron 1072/1 wrote:To his credit, Feagles, uppn breaking the record, downplayed his achievement by calling Marshall the record holder among "real players."


Feagles is a horrible human.
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Postby D'Annunzio » 20 Dec 2007, 10:14

I love the Barry/Emmitt debate, but the people who defend Emmitt are out of their minds. HE'S GREAT, WE'RE NOT SAYING HE ISN'T! He's just not as good as Sanders.


I think the following sums the argument up the best. The people who defend Emmitt are going off what actually happened on the field. The numbers, the Super Bowls, etc. The people who defend Barry Sanders base their arguments on "ifs".
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Postby BostonSucksMyBalls » 20 Dec 2007, 10:18

D'Annunzio wrote:
I love the Barry/Emmitt debate, but the people who defend Emmitt are out of their minds. HE'S GREAT, WE'RE NOT SAYING HE ISN'T! He's just not as good as Sanders.


I think the following sums the argument up the best. The people who defend Emmitt are going off what actually happened on the field. The numbers, the Super Bowls, etc. The people who defend Barry Sanders base their arguments on "ifs".


I wonder 'if' Barry would suck as bad on TV as Emmitt. Would he not be able to form full sentences like Emmitt? We'll never know.
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