Simpson-YES, Tiger's Comeback Tougher than Ali's, so SUCK IT

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Simpson-YES, Tiger's Comeback Tougher than Ali's, so SUCK IT

Postby BostonSucksMyBalls » 03 Mar 2010, 16:47

PS: I will never like July 27th. It will always be the day Reggie died. I just hate this day. True Celtic fans know what I mean.

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Re: Simpson-YES, Tiger's Comeback Tougher than Ali's, so SUCK IT

Postby The Long Dick of the Law » 03 Mar 2010, 16:51

he just can't ever admit he's wrong can he?
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Re: Simpson-YES, Tiger's Comeback Tougher than Ali's, so SUCK IT

Postby MisterTambourineMan » 03 Mar 2010, 17:07

The Long Dick of the Law wrote:he just can't ever admit he's wrong can he?


He's Bill Simmons. He invented the internet, writing, pantheons, and marb lights. No one denies this.


His biggest issue was a suspension by Nation of Islam leader Elijah Muhammad


Or not boxing for at least two years and then having to go against the likes of Norton, Foreman, and Frazier to get his belt back.


Regardless, I probably shouldn't do chats anymore -- not because I screwed up


HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

but because it's dumb to waste points better served in a larger column like this one.


Sure. Sure.
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Re: Simpson-YES, Tiger's Comeback Tougher than Ali's, so SUCK IT

Postby Colonel Angus » 03 Mar 2010, 17:13

My Friday chat on ESPN.com drew 42,000 questions. The total transcript was 9,600 words, and because I probably typed two-thirds of them, that means I banged out about 6,400 words in three hours. When I wasn't typing, I was sifting through questions looking for a good one to post. Didn't pee. Didn't get a drink. Didn't even stand up. Just emptied my brain on a keyboard.


Emptying your brain on a keyboard shouldn't have taken three hours,Bill. (Hey-yo!)

But I like how he is already making excuses for his stupidity on Friday.

Now here's why I rarely do chats anymore: Under speed chess conditions, it becomes exceedingly possible that either (A) I might say something inappropriate, (B) I might infuriate my bosses in some way or (C) I might argue a point incorrectly without realizing it until later. On Friday, I made a mistake comparing the 2010 Tiger Woods to the 1970 Muhammad Ali, saying that Tiger's comeback would be much tougher because "everyone under 35 was rooting for Ali." Total hyperbole that never would have happened had I spent more time thinking about it. More importantly, I botched a quality point that could have made for an interesting column.


"You people forced me to say that! It's not fair!"

When Tiger Woods returns to golf, he will face a level of pressure that well surpasses anything any other transcendent athlete has faced in my lifetime.

Yeah. Absolutely. Let's hop on the course and play nine holes (in the form of points) to bang home the point that, yes, Tiger's presumed return to golf in 2010 will be significantly more difficult than Ali's return to boxing in 1970.


Nine holes - it's just like golf! Er, half of golf! Couldn't come up with 18 ideas, eh, Billy?

Hole No. 1 (par 4)
Tiger hasn't played golf competitively in four months. As far as we know, until this week he hasn't played a single hole since mid-November. Just Tuesday, there was a news article saying Tiger has returned home and is "trying to get back into a routine that includes golf and fitness." Trying to get back into a routine? That sounds ominous.


Wow, four months? That's insane! Does he even remember what a golf club is? Will he know which end to hold?

Ali was banned from boxing for three and a half years! Boxing! Three and a half years!

ETA:
Hole No. 5 (par 4)
Once upon a time, everyone left Tiger alone partly because the media didn't want to piss him off, partly because he crafted such a good buffer between him and the outside world, and partly because there wasn't anything sexy or interesting about him. That's how he lived from 1997 to 2009. Even named his boat "Privacy." And really, he had it.

Not anymore. Tiger will spend the rest of his playing days as Jordan did during the latter half of his Chicago career -- trapped in hotel suites and charter planes, occasionally emerging to play sports, and if he needs to blow off steam, his options are "the nearest high-stakes gambling area," and that's about it. I'm not saying Tiger's life was normal before Thanksgiving, but he never had paparazzi stalking him, tabloids making up things about him, bloggers chronicling his every move, and people taping him with camera phones everywhere he goes. Fish, meet bowl. And he's a big-ass fish. How will he handle it? We don't know.


Holy shit, this may be the single dumbest thing Simmons has ever written. Yeah, Tiger could do whatever he wanted before this scandal. Hell, I used to see him down at the mall with his kids. Out at the movies. Nobody ever bothered the guy. Nowadays? He can forget about that - there will be people paying attention to him! What will someone like Tiger Woods do when people are constantly taking pictures of him? We don't know!!!
Last edited by Colonel Angus on 03 Mar 2010, 17:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Simpson-YES, Tiger's Comeback Tougher than Ali's, so SUCK IT

Postby Dunking Donut » 03 Mar 2010, 17:13

Tiger fucked a few bitches -- so what? He's got the mentality of a 15 year old girl who thinks it's the biggest deal in the world.

In context, being black in 60s and being involved in the religious and political stuff was a way bigger deal. Have a little perspective. Damn, dude.
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Re: Simpson-YES, Tiger's Comeback Tougher than Ali's, so SUCK IT

Postby Colonel Angus » 03 Mar 2010, 17:22

Hole No. 6 (par 5)
Forget about Ali


... in this comparison I am making between Tiger and Ali.

It can't even be called a 24/7 news cycle anymore. It's like 72/7.


It's true - look it up. The news is now on 72 hours a day, 7 days a week. Ali didn't have to deal with that. Who says no?

Would you want to be a famously shamed athlete striving to regain past success in 2010?


Um... yes.

Plus, Jordan had the buffer of a basketball court. Ali had the buffer of a boxing ring and just a few fights per year. Golf? Doesn't work that way. You're walking among fans for hole after hole. They're right there. Always. Studying every move you make from as close as five feet away. And you can't come and go; you need to be out there swinging your sticks week after week after week in city after city after city. Which means this will be a traveling sideshow, at least for the first few months.


This is a great point. Everyone forgets this, but Jordan didn't have to travel from city to city dealing with fans. Wait - what?

Jordan had the buffer of a basketball court, Ali had the buffer of a boxing ring (had he lasted a few more fights, he would have had the Michael Buffer of the boxing ring, amirite?) - so why doesn't Tiger get the buffer of the golf course?

Hole No. 7 (par 4)
How will the fans react? Do we know? Do we have any inkling? I could see the turmoil eventually turning him into a sentimental underdog; after all, we watched him go through the Celebrity F--- up Car Wash, dissected it, made our jokes, broke it down at cocktail parties, and now, selfishly, we're ready to see him reclaim "best golfer ever" status again. That's the most idealistic view of how it plays out. But we don't know. And I guarantee you, neither does Tiger Woods.


Again, what does any of this have to do with the shit Ali had to go through? Does Simmons think that Tiger Woods is playing golf for anyone other than himself (and maybe his dead father)? Does he honestly think Tiger Woods gives a shit what the fans think when he is hitting the ball?
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"it was such a sexy goal, that punched me right in the balls. metaphorically"
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Re: Simpson-YES, Tiger's Comeback Tougher than Ali's, so SUCK IT

Postby Bricks » 03 Mar 2010, 17:26

I completely disagree with Simmons' argument, but this was easily his best column in some time. He really put effort and fire into it, which he hasn't done in years. It wasn't his typical whining when someone disagrees with him (though he could have dropped the "I shouldn't do chats" stuff). He stuck with a point, added some historical research, and wrote a really good column.

To Dunk's point, he does close with this:
The pressures aren't nearly as meaningful as the ones surrounding Ali
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Re: Simpson-YES, Tiger's Comeback Tougher than Ali's, so SUCK IT

Postby JichaelDick » 03 Mar 2010, 17:33

Simmons is a retard. But I at least give him credit for expanding on his thesis rather than saying shit like "You don't know your Ali history."

ETA:
When Ali returned from his Vietnam exile, he had two massive groups of people pulling for him: Black America and the anti-war movement


Isn't Elijah Muhammad suspending him at least partially a nod that not all of Black America was rooting for Ali?
Last edited by JichaelDick on 03 Mar 2010, 17:39, edited 1 time in total.
TVF wannabe - Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:42 pm: ...a good rule of thumb is if you post some thing like that and IMS quickly jumps in with an uncomfortable reference you went too far
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Re: Simpson-YES, Tiger's Comeback Tougher than Ali's, so SUCK IT

Postby robstercraws » 03 Mar 2010, 17:38

Simmons wrote:But an online chat? Speed chess.

Come on, don't be so modest. Running five gambits at once is much simpler than trying to answer rapid-fire questions about DeMarcus Cousins and the Bachelor.


Simmons wrote:More importantly, I botched a quality point that could have made for an interesting column.

So then he went ahead and wrote the column anyway. And, as it turns out, it wasn't interesting after all.


Simmons wrote:Hole No. 1 (par 4)

What was the point of listing the "par" for every hole?


Simmons wrote:Regardless, I probably shouldn't do chats anymore

In other words, I'm going to take my ball and go home!


Dunking Donuts wrote:Have a little perspective. Damn, dude.

Amen.
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Re: Simpson-YES, Tiger's Comeback Tougher than Ali's, so SUCK IT

Postby ShootTheCooz » 03 Mar 2010, 17:42

Simmons has his head completely up his ass on this, and this column just drives his noggin further into his digestive tract. Christ, so he shot from the hip and made a silly comment in a chat: who cares? Now he's trying to justify his boneheaded remark, and he looks petulant and even more foolish. Tiger's "exile" is nothing like Ali's, not even close, and Simmons knows it. Tiger's "comeback" isn't even close to being the most difficult and arduous that a golfer has undertaken; I guess Simmons has never heard of Ben Hogan. Shit, Michael Vick has undergone a far more difficult exile and return to the NFL. Tiger's problems are pure tabloid nonsense. Once he begins playing again, no one is going to care about how many sleazebags he's fucked.
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Re: Simpson-YES, Tiger's Comeback Tougher than Ali's, so SUCK IT

Postby Colonel Angus » 03 Mar 2010, 17:49

But the pressures of Ali's exile (especially in the first two years) shouldn't be confused with the pressure of his actual comeback (which wasn't nearly as daunting as you would think).


Simpson could have Tweeted this and come across better than writing a lengthy diatribe that is flat-out wrong in many places. If this was the point he was originally trying to make, fine. I think it is probably wrong, as written previously by others more knowledgeable than I, but I suppose it is defensible if you were there and remember it that way.

So Simmons was there and remembers it that way, right?

In the weeks leading up to the Quarry fight, most of the anti-Ali stuff had died down or disappeared entirely. He had evolved into a "political and social force," as biographer Thomas Hauser described him. In Hauser's book, longtime boxing promoter Jim Jacobs described in detail how things had changed for Ali after getting stripped of his title:

"A substantial portion of the American public disliked him, and worse, they were getting tired of hearing what he was about. But the exile turned that around. It showed people that Ali was sincere. It made him an underdog. ... And traveling around the country, speaking on college campuses, Ali was able to bring his message to tens of thousands of young men and women. In a way, it was like a Presidential candidate sowing the seeds for future caucuses and primaries. And of course, people began to feel that whether or not they liked Ali, he shouldn't have been forced out for his beliefs ... (when he came back against Quarry), Ali was paid more money for that fight than he'd ever been paid before."


Oh, he's getting this from one guy's book, a book written 20 years after the fact.

Oh, and also a Sports Illustrated article that said that the roof didn't fall in and nobody threw a bomb. Probably just out of the blue, not because anyone feared such things might happen.

I skimmed through my collection of Ali books, read the old Sports Illustrateds and even sifted through the New York Times articles from that year, and at no point in the fall of 1970 did anyone wonder whether Ali might fold from the pressure of that comeback.


Good book report, Bill.

ETA:
Regardless, I probably shouldn't do chats anymore -- not because I screwed up, but because it's dumb to waste points better served in a larger column like this one.


The important thing to remember is that I didn't screw up!

And if you claim that you can predict exactly how that person will emerge from this twisted mess ... you are lying.


You hear that? You're a fucking liar!
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Re: Simpson-YES, Tiger's Comeback Tougher than Ali's, so SUCK IT

Postby Freddy Fernandez » 03 Mar 2010, 18:34

Simmons wrote:Hole No. 3 (par 3)
Don't discount Tiger's advancing age (34) at this point. Watson never won another major after he turned 34; neither did Arnold Palmer, Fred Couples, Seve Ballesteros or Curtis Strange. Nick Faldo won only one major after 34 -- the 1996 Masters that Norman choked away. Only Jack Nicklaus thrived from 34 to 40 (16 PGA titles, three majors), although Norman (eight PGA titles, one major) and Lee Trevino (six titles, one major) also fared pretty well. Tom Kite peaked after he turned 34. Nick Price won two majors at 37; Mark O'Meara won his only two at 41. And sure, Tiger was better than all of those guys. But none of those guys had to keep winning while rebuilding his life after a DEFCON 1 public humiliation.


Here are a few guys that never won anything after they turned 34. Then here are a few more guys that did win after they turned 34. He should have ended this paragraph with "I got nothing."
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Re: Simpson-YES, Tiger's Comeback Tougher than Ali's, so SUCK IT

Postby Jailblazer » 03 Mar 2010, 18:58

Freddy Fernandez wrote:
Simmons wrote:Hole No. 3 (par 3)
Don't discount Tiger's advancing age (34) at this point. Watson never won another major after he turned 34; neither did Arnold Palmer, Fred Couples, Seve Ballesteros or Curtis Strange. Nick Faldo won only one major after 34 -- the 1996 Masters that Norman choked away. Only Jack Nicklaus thrived from 34 to 40 (16 PGA titles, three majors), although Norman (eight PGA titles, one major) and Lee Trevino (six titles, one major) also fared pretty well. Tom Kite peaked after he turned 34. Nick Price won two majors at 37; Mark O'Meara won his only two at 41. And sure, Tiger was better than all of those guys. But none of those guys had to keep winning while rebuilding his life after a DEFCON 1 public humiliation.


Here are a few guys that never won anything after they turned 34. Then here are a few more guys that did win after they turned 34. He should have ended this paragraph with "I got nothing."


The fact he used Watson as an example of a golf age limit less than a year after he choked away a major victory at 59 years old shows how much he knows about golf. Watson's putting yips had little or nothing to do with age. He lost his nerve. Tiger keeps himself in tip top shape, so it's not going to be his age that does him in. It will either be his pre-existing knee problem or losing his confidence.

I wonder how many golf tournaments Bill has attended or watched on TV besides Happy Gilmore and Tin Cup? Spectators can get ejected for breathing hard in a golfer's back swing, and tourney officials will go to great lengths to appease their biggest meal ticket. If Bill thinks Tiger will get pressured by the golf media or galleries during a tournament, he's nuts.
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Re: Simpson-YES, Tiger's Comeback Tougher than Ali's, so SUCK IT

Postby dlpin » 03 Mar 2010, 19:11

I knew Simmons was a douche bag, but this makes him a douchebag of epic proportions.

Ali had scheduled his comeback against Quarry in Oklahoma, which didn't have a boxing association and as such he didnt need a license. Veterans protested so much that the fight was moved to Atlanta. Newspapers still called him Cassius Clay. Frazier said "what kind of man is this who don't want to fight for his country? If he was in Russia or someplace else, they'd put him up against the wall. He walks around like he's one kind of big hero but her's just a phony, a disgrace." After Ali beat Quarry the official Soviet agency said that that was a "blow to racists and reactionary forces."

The cold war, the supreme court, veteran organizations, all boxing associations. Apparently, none of those are anything close to the national enquirer and tmz...
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Re: Simpson-YES, Tiger's Comeback Tougher than Ali's, so SUCK IT

Postby DinoVelvet » 03 Mar 2010, 20:22

dlpin wrote:I knew Simmons was a douche bag, but this makes him a douchebag of epic proportions.

Ali had scheduled his comeback against Quarry in Oklahoma, which didn't have a boxing association and as such he didnt need a license. Veterans protested so much that the fight was moved to Atlanta. Newspapers still called him Cassius Clay. Frazier said "what kind of man is this who don't want to fight for his country? If he was in Russia or someplace else, they'd put him up against the wall. He walks around like he's one kind of big hero but her's just a phony, a disgrace." After Ali beat Quarry the official Soviet agency said that that was a "blow to racists and reactionary forces."

The cold war, the supreme court, veteran organizations, all boxing associations. Apparently, none of those are anything close to the national enquirer and tmz...


Damn fine post.

Words fail to describe just how appalling and plain wrong is this latest column. After his ridiculous statement in Friday's chat, I didn't think it was possible for Simba to stick his foot any further into his mouth, but somehow he managed to confound.

Missing 4 or 5 months of golf (what amounts to little more than the sport's off-season) due to a sex scandal in no way shape or form compares with having three-and-a-half of the best years of your career taken from you, in a sport that demands maximum physical conditioning, for taking a highly-controversial/polarizing political stance, and then coming back and facing the daunting task of having to defeat the new, younger, and undefeated champion, just five months into your comeback, in order to get your belt back and in the face of tremendous popular opposition. If there's any doubt about what three-and-a-half years of exile will do to you in a sport like boxing, just look at the difference between Ali pre-1967 and post-1970. He never got his legs back and had to adapt into a completely different fighter. See also: Tyson, Mike. Does anyone really think Tiger will be a fundamentally different golfer because of his months-long absence? Of course not. In that vein, Tiger's comeback from his knee injury was more difficult than this sex-addiction crap.

I'd submit that Tyson's comeback from jail blows Tiger's out of the water, also, considering he lost FOUR prime years of his career and had the added adversity of being a convicted rapist. Don't forget his comeback was such big news at the time that all the news networks were literally camped outside the prison when he was released at 6 o'clock in the morning, as if a new pope had been elected, and followed his every move thereafter.

It's also funny to watch how Simba has tried to continually move the goalposts re:his moronic Ali-Tiger comparison. First, it was "everybody" was rooting for Ali. Then later in the chat, it turned into "everyone 35 and under." In this latest column, it shrank again to just "Black America" and the anti-war crowd, and he created some nebulous, artificial distinction between the "pressures" involved (some nonsense about Ali facing more pressure during his exile but Tiger facing more during his comeback, as if the two weren't one-and-the-same and Ali-Frazier wasn't a cultural cold war fought in a boxing ring).

Simmons knows it was preposterous and beyond the pale to compare Tiger's comeback to Ali's (that's why he keeps backtracking)—he just refuses to admit it was brainless and is instead trying to shovel enough shit to obfuscate his spectacular folly.
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